21 Aug
2020
21 Aug
'20
4:24 p.m.
Dear List
Today we received several delisting request for URI's and IP Addresses
somehow associated with Newsletters sent by 'Rocketmails.ch'.
The listings were caused during the last 14 days or so by multiple
customers reporting those emails as spam and claiming not having
subscribed, nor being a customer of the advertising company.
And I guess I can figure out why...
Quote: "Sie erhalten dieses Mailing, weil Sie sich bei unseren
Aktionsseiten oder der unserer Werbepartner mit der Email-Adresse
XXXX eingetragen haben."
There is no mention of WHAT partner or WHAT website they allegedly
subscribed. So that could also explain that they don't know the
company whose products are advertised via Rocketmails. So for the
recipient this is just spam.
Anyone else seeing these and knowing more about how the transfer of
such personal data happens between those partner and what kind of
partners those are?
So far no spamtrap hits, so this does not look like harvested addresses.
--
Mit freundlichen Grüssen
-Benoît Panizzon- @ HomeOffice und normal erreichbar
--
I m p r o W a r e A G - Leiter Commerce Kunden
______________________________________________________
Zurlindenstrasse 29 Tel +41 61 826 93 00
CH-4133 Pratteln Fax +41 61 826 93 01
Schweiz Web http://www.imp.ch
______________________________________________________
21 Aug
21 Aug
5:06 p.m.
They obviously do Coreg. If you intend to deal with them, ask for proof
of COI signup. That will end the conversation rather quickly.
5:29 p.m.
Anyone else seeing these and knowing more about how
the transfer of
such personal data happens between those partner and what kind of
partners those are?
This is usually easy to find out with a data information request.
* Info EDÖB:
https://www.edoeb.admin.ch/edoeb/de/home/datenschutz/ueberblick/das-auskunf…
* Formular: https://mritzmann.github.io/letter/
I send such requests regularly, mainly as soon as I receive email newsletters of Swiss
companys or offline post. Below are a few stories about how my address and e-mail data
regularly change hands. Making sure that doesn't happen is very difficult.
First Story, 2016:
* I received a newsletter for health insurance companies. The data was sold by
"Zattoo Europa AG". After all: The newsletter could be cancelled as usual, after
that it was quiet.
Second Story, 2017:
* I have received advertising from "Swisscard" (belongs to Credit Swiss and
American Express). According to the information request, the data was purchased from the
company Schober AG.
* Then I sent a request for data information to Schober. However, Schober only gave an
incomplete answer to the request. The data is supposed to be provided by third parties
(names were not mentioned) "in agreement with their terms and conditions" and
was then supplemented with public information.
Third Story, 2019:
* The Swiss Federation of Bakers and Confectioners has sold my address to Swissmilk
(Farmers' Association). Swissmilk then sent me their free advertising magazine by
post.
* I've moved. Swissmilk has received my new address via Localsearch (Swisscom
subsidiary). They run a service (product name: "Multisource Database") to update
wrong and old addresses. According to the request for information, localsearch has
received my new address from Sunrise and Swisscom.
22 Aug
22 Aug
9:28 a.m.
On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 04:24:26PM +0200, Benoît Panizzon wrote:
Today we received several delisting request for
URI's and IP Addresses
somehow associated with Newsletters sent by 'Rocketmails.ch'.
A few weeks ago, I asked SECO about Rocket Mountain AG & Rocket Leads AG /
Christian Huldi General-Wille-Str. 201 CH-8706 Meilen because they sent spam to
multiple of my technical addresses, and SECO answered basically this:
1) sending to technical addresses is illegal, because they did not opt-in,
and opt-in or having bought something is one of the three cumultative
conditions to allow sending advertising e-mail
2) they told the company directly to stop.
3) they told me I can sue the company if I want
In German, here is the basic info they send when you complain to SECO:
Wir beziehen uns auf Ihre heutige Beschwerde vom betreffend die Versendung von
Spamnachrichten durch die [ FIRMA ]
Die von Ihnen erwähnten E-Mails könnten möglicherweise unlautere Massenwerbung
im Sinne von Art. 3 Abs. 1 lit. o UWG (Bundesgesetz gegen den unlauteren
Wettbewerb https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classified-compilation/19860391/ ; SR
241) darstellen. Gemäss dieser Bestimmung ist der Versand von Massenwerbung nur
zulässig, wenn die folgenden drei Bedingungen kumulativ erfüllt sind:
a. Der Empfänger hat in den Empfang einer Sendung ausdrücklich
eingewilligt oder die Zustimmung des Empfängers ergibt sich aus einem beim
Absender getätigten Kauf.
b. Die Sendung enthält einen korrekten Absender.
c. Die Sendung enthält einen klaren und deutlichen Hinweis, der die
Ablehnung des weiteren Empfangs der Massenwerbung problemlos und kostenlos
ermöglicht.
Sie haben die Möglichkeit, wegen Verletzungen von Art. 3 Abs. 1 lit. o UWG bei
der Polizei oder der Staatsanwaltschaft einen Strafantrag gegen den Absender
einzureichen und hätten überdies die Möglichkeit, auf dem Zivilprozessweg die
Unterlassung der weiteren Zustellung von Massenwerbung zu verlangen.
NB: I have no idea if Rocket Mountain AG, Rocket Leads AG and Christian Huldi has
any link with rocketmails.ch, however both were hosted at hosttech GmbH which
basically told me they wouldn't do anything, and told me to contact the
customer: I did that, and got absolutely no reply in the last three weeks.
I might send the formular that was mentionned on the list to see where they
got that technical address from, thank you for the hint.
I have decided not to sue for the moment, this is very time consuming.
12:30 p.m.
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 09:28:25 Marc SCHAEFER <schaefer(a)alphanet.ch> wrote:
NB: I have no idea if Rocket Mountain AG, Rocket Leads
AG and
Christian Huldi has any link with rocketmails.ch, however both were
hosted at hosttech GmbH which basically told me they wouldn't do
anything, and told me to contact the customer: I did that, and got
absolutely no reply in the last three weeks.
I sent an "Auskunftsbegehren" regarding Spam to the Whois address of
rocketsmails.ch in 2018, and I got a first answer by mail (from
rocketleads.ch) and later by written letter (after I send them a second
registered mail) from the Company Rocket Mails AG.
Therefore, I can confirm that rocketleads.ch and Rocket Mails AG are
the same company or had the same owners at that time.
Back then, they told me that the got the mail address from a third
party, to which I had consent into receiving advertisements. I could
not confirm or deny that claim, and therefor I didn't take further
steps, other than sending a letter to the third party, which did not
answer.
The relevant part of the letter from Rocket Mails AG was as follows:
Die Firma Rocket Mails AG fungiert als sogenannter Listbroker, das
heisst; wir nutzen Daten von Dritten (Listeignern), welche die Daten
erhoben haben und über das Werbeeinverständnis verfügen. Die
vorangehend genannten Daten (Personendaten und E-Mail Adresse) stammen
aus folgender Quelle:
[REDACTED]
Für weitere Informationen (Art der Einwilligung, IP-Adresse und
Timestamp) bitten wir Sie, sich direkt beim Listeigner
(Dateneigentümmer und Inhaber des Werbeeinverständnisses) zu melden.
Nachfolgend dürfen wir Ihnen die Kontaktdaten zukommen lassen:
[REDACTED]
Greetings
Peter
19 Sep
19 Sep
11:05 a.m.
On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 12:30:21PM +0200, Peter Rohrer wrote:
I sent an "Auskunftsbegehren" regarding Spam
to the Whois address of
rocketsmails.ch in 2018, and I got a first answer by mail (from
rocketleads.ch) and later by written letter (after I send them a second
registered mail) from the Company Rocket Mails AG.
After about one month, they answered. They seem to have a third company,
Rocket Mountain AG, and thus rejected my request because it was not formally
addressed to that company which seems to be now handling addressing for the
other two (?).
I just resent it, this time as recommandé (eingeschrieben).
We will see what they will invent next not to comply with my rights.
21 Sep
21 Sep
11:02 a.m.
Hi
Also an Update from my Side.
Tassero (the ESP) also told Rocket Moutain AG to contact me to solve
the issue.
I had a first phone call with the responsible @ Rocket Mauntain AG. She
also told me that rocketmails.ch has nothing to do with them and that
therefore they would never answer the email I sent them. I pointed out
that the reply-to header points to rocketmails.ch !
She told me, that they have a partnership with Swiss Post (indeed,
that is mentioned on their website) and the recipients used for those
emails originates from Swiss Post customers who agreed that Swiss Post
uses their data for marketing.
I asked, why they don't mention this fact in the advertisement emails
so the Swiss Post customer know where to have their data blocked. She
couldn't tell.
I sent them (Rocket Mountain AG and Swiss Post) a request for a proof
of opt-in for our affected customers. I have not yet received and
reply. I'll call them today :-) )
Mit freundlichen Grüssen
-Benoît Panizzon-
--
I m p r o W a r e A G - Leiter Commerce Kunden
______________________________________________________
Zurlindenstrasse 29 Tel +41 61 826 93 00
CH-4133 Pratteln Fax +41 61 826 93 01
Schweiz Web http://www.imp.ch
______________________________________________________
11:35 a.m.
Hi Gang
Update about today's call with Rocket Mountains AG.
Q: Involvement of rocketmails.ch:
They used to work together in the past but have split since. They don't
know why their emails contained the 'wrong' sender and reply-to header
and are investigating the issue. (I'll also ask Tassero).
Q: Partner of Swiss Post:
They mentioned that they are a partner of Swiss Post. But they did not
tell me that they got the data from Swiss Post. That was a
misunderstanding on my side.
They got the data from the recipients from Partner which, according to
their understanding of the Swiss legal situation, they only have do
disclose to the affected recipients and to no one else.
Q: Why don't they transparently state in the emails, where they got the
recipient's data from, so the recipient can retrace why he got this
advertisement email?
They don't see any legal obligation to do so. Just putting a footer in
the email stating that Rocket Mountain AG sent the email and how to
contact them fulfills all legal requirements.
If a customer wants the details, he can sent in a copy of and ID and he
will get all the details!
Q: Don't they think, transparently disclosing the source of the data to
the recipient would avoid their emails to be flagged as spam because it
is to cumbersome for the customer to do the whole procedure to request
this data?
No! They follow all legal requirements, they are not obliged to do
more. It's not their fault. It's the fault of the recipients if they
don't contact them and asks where they got their data and just
wrongfully report such emails as spam.
But they will discuss the issue internally and have agreed to send me
the details providing a proof of consent to receive those emails for the
affected customers, with personal details blacked out.
Mit freundlichen Grüssen
-Benoît Panizzon-
--
I m p r o W a r e A G - Leiter Commerce Kunden
______________________________________________________
Zurlindenstrasse 29 Tel +41 61 826 93 00
CH-4133 Pratteln Fax +41 61 826 93 01
Schweiz Web http://www.imp.ch
______________________________________________________
12 Oct
12 Oct
11:31 a.m.
On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:35:41AM +0200, Benoit Panizzon wrote:
Update about today's call with Rocket Mountains
AG.
They just replied, in time.
They basically are not answering specific questions about specific e-mail address,
inclusive technical addresses that are not linked to a specific person, nor the domain
names that I included in the request.
They basically say that another company was responsible for the data
acquisition and ask me to contact them. They however confirmed having
suppressed my personal information. They gave a completely nonsensical
reply to the reason why they had that data in the first place.
I will send another query to that other company, Sandro Achilles Photography
Corporation, Voltastrasse 66, 8044 Zurich and see what happens next.
12:21 p.m.
I will send another query to that other company,
Sandro Achilles Photography
Corporation, Voltastrasse 66, 8044 Zurich and see what happens next.
Bullseye!
I will contact her (Ms. G. from Rocket Mountain AG) and provide her an
absolute proof, that S.A. used to work in the management @ Schober and
during that time, copied data from his Schober customer who had their
data processed by Schober, to later sell this data to AZ-Direct or
TA-Media etc and pretend it's his own data he acquired via Mailchimp
List Subscriptions (disproved by Lizza from Mailchimp Legal Team).
Also worth looking: SWINOG Anti-Spam list with a thread about the 'new
Swiss Spam King'.
Please contact SECO (Lena Geiser). They know 'this case' since 2017.
Please contact ECO.de (Mr. Brandolino). They know about him very
recently.
Also worth notifying: Denise Anderegg DPO @ Schober and urge her once
more to take legal steps against their former management member.
Of course it would be very very interesting, if your data could also be
tracked back to a customer of Schober who had it's data processed @
Schober while S.A. was part of their management.
Mit freundlichen Grüssen
-Benoît Panizzon-
--
I m p r o W a r e A G - Leiter Commerce Kunden
______________________________________________________
Zurlindenstrasse 29 Tel +41 61 826 93 00
CH-4133 Pratteln Fax +41 61 826 93 01
Schweiz Web http://www.imp.ch
______________________________________________________
1:07 p.m.
Hello,
Thank you for this valuable information.
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 12:21:38PM +0200, Benoit Panizzon wrote:
Please contact SECO (Lena Geiser). They know 'this
case' since 2017.
Please contact ECO.de (Mr. Brandolino). They know about him very
recently.
I did that. Schober changed its name to Künzlerbachmann.
Of course it would be very very interesting, if your
data could also be
tracked back to a customer of Schober who had it's data processed @
Schober while S.A. was part of their management.
Let's wait for Sandro Achille's reply, in a month or so.
15 Oct
15 Oct
8:54 p.m.
On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 13:07:20 Marc SCHAEFER <schaefer(a)alphanet.ch> wrote:
I sent him registered letters to both his "Sandro Achilles Photography
Corporation" (in 2019) and to "ACHILLES – Management & Marketing
Consulting" (he received it about 2 Months ago) and did not get any
response so far. I also called his phone number, he claimed someone
else is handling those request for him.
Kind Regards
Peter Rohrer
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 12:21:38PM +0200, Benoit
Panizzon wrote:
> Please contact SECO (Lena Geiser). They know 'this case' since 2017.
Are they also willing to do anything, or is it more effective to hand
over the case to the federal prosecutor?
Last time I complaint to SECO about spam from Salt (former Orange), they
played it down, saying that it was "just one mail".
Of course it
would be very very interesting, if your data could
also be tracked back to a customer of Schober who had it's data
processed @ Schober while S.A. was part of their management.
Let's wait for Sandro Achille's reply, in a month or so.
9:21 p.m.
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 08:54:32PM +0200, Peter Rohrer wrote:
I sent him registered letters to both his "Sandro
Achilles Photography
Corporation" (in 2019) and to "ACHILLES ??? Management & Marketing
Consulting" (he received it about 2 Months ago) and did not get any
response so far. I also called his phone number, he claimed someone
else is handling those request for him.
If you do not get any reply after one month, I think that then it should be
escalated to the proper authorities, as this looks a violation of Swiss law.
So far everyone has replied in the legal delay. I sent normal mail (and then
registered mail when RocketMails played the `it's not us, it's
RocketMountain').
If someone knows more about the legal procedure to follow when there is no
reply, I would happily know about it.
16 Oct
16 Oct
3:02 a.m.
just my 5cts...
would it break something if those who are spamed from them simply cut them off by
nullrouting 185.176.152.0/22 ?
a static route to localhost on the receiving MX would do the trick.
That ISP is obviously hosting SPAMers and I wouldn't expect to have useful
communication to/from that prefix...
8-)
----- Am 15. Okt 2020 um 21:21 schrieb Marc SCHAEFER schaefer(a)alphanet.ch:
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 08:54:32PM +0200, Peter Rohrer
wrote:
I sent him registered letters to both his
"Sandro Achilles Photography
Corporation" (in 2019) and to "ACHILLES ??? Management & Marketing
Consulting" (he received it about 2 Months ago) and did not get any
response so far. I also called his phone number, he claimed someone
else is handling those request for him.
If you do not get any reply after one month, I think that then it should be
escalated to the proper authorities, as this looks a violation of Swiss law.
So far everyone has replied in the legal delay. I sent normal mail (and then
registered mail when RocketMails played the `it's not us, it's
RocketMountain').
If someone knows more about the legal procedure to follow when there is no
reply, I would happily know about it.
_______________________________________________
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swinog(a)lists.swinog.ch
http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
22 Nov
22 Nov
6:25 p.m.
On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 21:21:25 Marc SCHAEFER <schaefer(a)alphanet.ch> wrote:
If you do not get any reply after one month, I think
that then it
should be escalated to the proper authorities, as this looks a
violation of Swiss law.
I did not get an answer, not even after a second registered letter with
return receipt (but at least I got a signed return receipt, this is
even better evidence that he received the letter).
So far everyone has replied in the legal delay. I sent
normal mail
(and then registered mail when RocketMails played the `it's not us,
it's RocketMountain').
If someone knows more about the legal procedure to follow when there
is no reply, I would happily know about it.
This blog post describes how a criminal complaint lead to a conviction
by the prosecutor:
https://www.digitale-gesellschaft.ch/2019/06/04/verurteilung-wegen-versand-…
I used this as a template to write my own criminal complaint this
weekend. Let's see how it turns out.
Kind Regards
Peter
25 Nov
25 Nov
4:24 p.m.
New subject: Problems accessing Sunrise networks?
Anyone seeing issues connecting to IPs belonging to sunrise? Started
about 15min ago. I'm not the bgp expert but all AS numbers of Sunrise I
found so far do not publish any bpg routes atm (ex
https://bgp.he.net/AS5426)
4:37 p.m.
New subject: Problems accessing Sunrise networks?
Hey Tobi,
we've got a peering with sunrise and do not see any problem on our link
nor on peering IP reachability from inside or outside our network.
Cheers,
Nico
Tobi <tobster(a)brain-force.ch> writes:
Anyone seeing issues connecting to IPs belonging to
sunrise? Started
about 15min ago. I'm not the bgp expert but all AS numbers of Sunrise I
found so far do not publish any bpg routes atm (ex
https://bgp.he.net/AS5426)
_______________________________________________
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Modern, affordable, Swiss Virtual Machines. Visit www.datacenterlight.ch
4:39 p.m.
New subject: Problems accessing Sunrise networks?
Hi
The sunrise ASN is AS6730
AS5426 is used for mobile and not externally exposed.
Thx Marc
-----Original Message-----
From: swinog-bounces(a)lists.swinog.ch <swinog-bounces(a)lists.swinog.ch> On Behalf Of
Tobi
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2020 4:25 PM
To: swinog(a)lists.swinog.ch
Subject: [swinog] Problems accessing Sunrise networks?
Anyone seeing issues connecting to IPs belonging to sunrise? Started about 15min ago.
I'm not the bgp expert but all AS numbers of Sunrise I found so far do not publish any
bpg routes atm (ex
https://bgp.he.net/AS5426)
_______________________________________________
swinog mailing list
swinog(a)lists.swinog.ch
https://smex-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=http%3a%2f%2…
26 Nov
26 Nov
7:26 a.m.
New subject: Problems accessing Sunrise networks?
Good Morning
just as update: according to sunrise there have been an issue affecting
at least the customers DC in Oerlikon. We were completely disconnected
from Sunrise DC and our servers there. Sunrise support explained that
an update in the BGP routing tables lead to an overload of their FIB.
Which ultimately caused connection outage to their server housing in
Oerlikon.
Cheers
tobi
p.s. thanks for pointing out that I looked up the wrong AS number ;-)
On 11/25/20 4:39 PM, Ammann, Marc wrote:
Hi
The sunrise ASN is AS6730
AS5426 is used for mobile and not externally exposed.
Thx Marc
-----Original Message-----
From: swinog-bounces(a)lists.swinog.ch <swinog-bounces(a)lists.swinog.ch> On Behalf Of
Tobi
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2020 4:25 PM
To: swinog(a)lists.swinog.ch
Subject: [swinog] Problems accessing Sunrise networks?
Anyone seeing issues connecting to IPs belonging to sunrise? Started about 15min ago.
I'm not the bgp expert but all AS numbers of Sunrise I found so far do not publish any
bpg routes atm (ex
https://bgp.he.net/AS5426)
_______________________________________________
swinog mailing list
swinog(a)lists.swinog.ch
https://smex-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=http%3a%2f%2…
28 Dec
28 Dec
6:03 p.m.
On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 18:25:23 Peter Rohrer <peter.rohrer(a)gmx.ch> wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 21:21:25 Marc SCHAEFER
<schaefer(a)alphanet.ch>
wrote:
I got an answer from the federal prosecutor, unfortunately I was to
late and didn't press charges within 3 months after knowing about the
offender (Art. 31 StGB). So, if you ever get into a similar situation,
don't waste to much time sending letters to the spammer and waiting for
answers.
I am not happy about that outcome, but there is not much I can do about
it.
If I understand the letter from the federal prosecutor correctly, the
violation of the data protection law was handed off to the
Stadtrichteramt Zürich. So, this is still open.
Greetings
Peter
So far everyone has replied in the legal delay. I
sent normal mail
(and then registered mail when RocketMails played the `it's not us,
it's RocketMountain').
If someone knows more about the legal procedure to follow when there
is no reply, I would happily know about it.
This blog post describes how a criminal complaint lead to a conviction
by the prosecutor:
https://www.digitale-gesellschaft.ch/2019/06/04/verurteilung-wegen-versand-…
I used this as a template to write my own criminal complaint this
weekend. Let's see how it turns out.
6:32 p.m.
On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 06:03:28PM +0100, Peter Rohrer wrote:
I got an answer from the federal prosecutor,
unfortunately I was to
late and didn't press charges within 3 months after knowing about the
That's really short.
It is surprising that Wrong accusations prescribe after 5 years, but
accusations must be made within 3 monthes.
offender (Art. 31 StGB). So, if you ever get into a
similar situation,
don't waste to much time sending letters to the spammer and waiting for
answers.
It's already too late, actually, as the culprit happened in august.
21 Sep
21 Sep
11:48 a.m.
On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:02:16AM +0200, Benoit Panizzon wrote:
emails originates from Swiss Post customers who agreed
that Swiss Post
uses their data for marketing.
Well, in my case, they wrote to technical addresses that never were
communicated to the Swiss Post. SECO was informed, as this violates
SR 241, Art. 3. Abs. 1, 1 lit. Kondition a.
SECO told me I could sue them just for that. Depending on how complete they
reply to my request, I might.
6 Oct
6 Oct
9:12 a.m.
Hi Marc
Did you get a reply to your request?
I had further contact with them, but they don't seem to grasp the
issue. They tell me that their contract with the list owners only allow
them to disclose the source of their data to the actual recipients.
Yes, I understand and I keep telling them to transparently name the
source of the data in the emails they send to the recipients as this
would comply with their contract.
But they don't want to do that and don't (want to) understand that this
leads to spam complaints because the recipient never had any contact
with Rocket Mountain AG before.
Mit freundlichen Grüssen
-Benoît Panizzon-
--
I m p r o W a r e A G - Leiter Commerce Kunden
______________________________________________________
Zurlindenstrasse 29 Tel +41 61 826 93 00
CH-4133 Pratteln Fax +41 61 826 93 01
Schweiz Web http://www.imp.ch
______________________________________________________
11:08 a.m.
On Tue, Oct 06, 2020 at 09:12:32AM +0200, Benoit Panizzon wrote:
Did you get a reply to your request?
Not yet, but they still have about two weeks.
But they don't want to do that and don't (want
to) understand that this
leads to spam complaints because the recipient never had any contact
with Rocket Mountain AG before.
Contact the SECO please, the more people complain, the higher is that SECO does
something. Especially when it's a company complaining.
883
days inactive
1012
days old
23 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
Ammann, Marc -
Benoit Panizzon -
Benoît Panizzon
-
Lukas Knauer -
Marc SCHAEFER -
Markus Ritzmann -
Nico Schottelius -
Peter Rohrer -
Ralph Krämer -
Tobi