Is anyone familiar with 3G repeater gear? I'm asking for a neighbor whose family owns a cottage in a Swiss mountain valley with poor 3G reception.
Any recommendation for gear which is easily installable, more or less plug-n-play, not too expensive (less than CHF 1000) and last but not least legal to operate would be appreciated.
-- Fredy Kuenzler Init7 (Switzerland) Ltd. St.-Georgen-Strasse 70 CH-8400 Winterthur Switzerland
Is anyone familiar with 3G repeater gear? I'm asking for a neighbor whose family owns a cottage in a Swiss mountain valley with poor 3G reception.
well its not so easy to give you an definite advise, the signal is based on reflection i believe, that has to be resolved.
you have to take into consideration is there a point with clear view for the next tower ? reception based on non sight will not give any satisfaction. 3g has even more bandwith need which degrade the signal more in case of non sight.
there are a lot of 3g enabled repeater (basically 2 way amplifier) available from chinese dealer.
price will be 200-300$ and deliver arround 60db gain up to 28dbm forgett about the cheap office repeater, those are only usable inside office in a small range and have tendency to oscillate which will call BAKOM on the Plan.
And you need antennas at a high pole .. for 60db you need at least 15m between the both antennas, good cable (rg213 or better cellwave above 3/8" the antenna on top vertical yagi 16-20element.. and below horizontal panel or even yagi. due the different polarisation of the two antennas you win theoreticaly 20db more decoupling (real you will reach 16db) the antenna for the user could be up to 600m far away if used an high gain antenna.
if an higher amplification needed you need an channelselective repeater, those are available up to 90db but they need to be tuned onsite on the specific channel and of corse need better cable to prevent feedback between in and out. channelselective repeater with 90db will cost up to 2000$. 5/8 cellwave will cost aprox 8-10$ per meter. and dont forgett the N-Plugs for those cable .. 12-15.- each
i got only a usable system with 5/8 cellwave with up and downlink 25m seperated and the user antenna was below of a metal roof, the decoupling between the two antennas was 70db
if you only need data would an 3g modem mounted near the antena with good reception and an wlan link the better idea, more stabil more reliable and will not reach your 1000.- limit an 3g modem doesnt cost much, and two ubiquity nano loco on 5.8ghz for 300.- will bridge 1-4km on sight if need more distance use airgrid 5m for the same price, they will go up to 8km.
i hope i could help a bit to give you at least an idea
Any recommendation for gear which is easily installable, more or less plug-n-play, not too expensive (less than CHF 1000) and last but not least legal to operate would be appreciated.
-------- Original-Nachricht -------- Message-ID: 53D853BD.2000501@mgz.ch Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2014 22:09:01 -0400 From: Roger Schmid roger@mgz.ch User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: swinog@lists.swinog.ch Subject: Re: [swinog] 3G Repeater References: F0F52CA6-489F-4FDC-B0CD-C3B7088FCE1A@init7.net In-Reply-To: F0F52CA6-489F-4FDC-B0CD-C3B7088FCE1A@init7.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Is anyone familiar with 3G repeater gear? I'm asking for a neighbor whose family owns a cottage in a Swiss mountain valley with poor 3G reception.
well its not so easy to give you an definite advise, the signal is based on reflection i believe, that has to be resolved.
you have to take into consideration is there a point with clear view for the next tower ? reception based on non sight will not give any satisfaction. 3g has even more bandwith need which degrade the signal more in case of non sight.
there are a lot of 3g enabled repeater (basically 2 way amplifier) available from chinese dealer.
price will be 200-300$ and deliver arround 60db gain up to 28dbm forgett about the cheap office repeater, those are only usable inside office in a small range and have tendency to oscillate which will call BAKOM on the Plan.
And you need antennas at a high pole .. for 60db you need at least 15m between the both antennas, good cable (rg213 or better cellwave above 3/8" the antenna on top vertical yagi 16-20element.. and below horizontal panel or even yagi. due the different polarisation of the two antennas you win theoreticaly 20db more decoupling (real you will reach 16db) the antenna for the user could be up to 600m far away if used an high gain antenna.
if an higher amplification needed you need an channelselective repeater, those are available up to 90db but they need to be tuned onsite on the specific channel and of corse need better cable to prevent feedback between in and out. channelselective repeater with 90db will cost up to 2000$. 5/8 cellwave will cost aprox 8-10$ per meter. and dont forgett the N-Plugs for those cable .. 12-15.- each
i got only a usable system with 5/8 cellwave with up and downlink 25m seperated and the user antenna was below of a metal roof, the decoupling between the two antennas was 70db
if you only need data would an 3g modem mounted near the antena with good reception and an wlan link the better idea, more stabil more reliable and will not reach your 1000.- limit an 3g modem doesnt cost much, and two ubiquity nano loco on 5.8ghz for 300.- will bridge 1-4km on sight if need more distance use airgrid 5m for the same price, they will go up to 8km.
i hope i could help a bit to give you at least an idea
Any recommendation for gear which is easily installable, more or less plug-n-play, not too expensive (less than CHF 1000) and last but not least legal to operate would be appreciated.
Hi Fredy,
will you have internet connectivity at that place?
I received a pico cell from orange to install in my storage cellar which is having nearly no reception, so not a repeater but a full blown base station... works quite good.
I think other carriers give them out aswell sometimes.
Silvan
On 30 Jul 2014, at 02:43, Fredy Kuenzler kuenzler@init7.net wrote:
Is anyone familiar with 3G repeater gear? I'm asking for a neighbor whose family owns a cottage in a Swiss mountain valley with poor 3G reception.
As a licensed amateur radio operator, I know that there is no easy answer.
Things to consider:
"3G" is a term used for the modulation and protocol technology but is not in reflection to the frequency. Traditionally 1900 or 2100Mhz is used but these days you might see 3G on 900Mhz too. If we talk about LTE 4G, we have over 40 official frequency ranges which in theory could be used. And LTE uses technologies such as MIMO with multiple antenna paths to get more throughput. As far as I know in Switzerland 2600MHz and 800MHz are used for LTE besides the traditional GSM frequencies 900,1800,1900,2100. All of these bands have different uplinks and downlink frequencies (FDD).
The chinese repeater products at the end of the day are simply an antenna + amplifier + band splitter. This means they receive the downlink from the outside antenna, amplify it and feed the inside antenna with the signal and on the uplink it does the reverse. The problem arises if the indoor antenna can feed a signal into the outdoor antenna. In this case, the repeater would send a signal to itself and start to oscillate. Secondly, if you look at the frequencies, you would have the need for amplifiers for all the different bands separately and also good band filter. This means the cheap devices simply only operate on one frequency band only. You sometimes see dual band versions but they are already rate.
On terms of the legality I'm not 100% sure as you would start to transmit a frequency which belongs to the operator. Its at least a bit of a grey zone as you don't control the transmission as you only repeat. Maybe with the blessing of the operator this could be ok. I'm sure they do such things for locations such as shopping centers. On the other hand they could as well use microcells in those areas for capacity reasons. Something which is not possible without a wired connection.
The best thing you could do is to put a good outside highly directional antenna and connect it directly to the device. A good antenna is your best amplifier. Also possible is a passive setup with a indoor antenna coupled with an outdoor antenna. This will basically simply change the antenna characteristic of the internal antenna of the device by coupling it with the outdoor antenna. It is never as good as a direct wired connection as you have considerable coupling losses. If this doesn't work, you can still consider adding an active repeater.
Another alternative is to simply put up a microwave point to point link to a location where you have better connectivity and simply relay the connectivity through. But this of course needs another location with power. If i say "microwave", this can be some decent Wifi devices such as a Mikrotik SXT on 5GHz. They cost like 60-110$ a piece.
Any recommendation for gear which is easily installable, more or less plug-n-play, not too expensive (less than CHF 1000) and last but not least legal to operate would be appreciated.
-- Fredy Kuenzler Init7 (Switzerland) Ltd. St.-Georgen-Strasse 70 CH-8400 Winterthur Switzerland
swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
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Good morning Fredy,
Hope you have everything ready for the swiss national party :)
I have two remarks regarding this issue.
First, any usage of active signal repeater is forbidden in Switzerland. (Statement of Bakom). Any base station system or signal repeater has to be owned / managed by an official frequency licensee. Signal repeater used in the field, do have some sophisticated measurement and control abilities.
Second, a passive Antenna system with an WWAN Gateway or an antenna coupler for the common mobile phone is the only legal way to solve your friends internet abstinence. Unless he likes to build a wireless Network.
But some times, it isn't at all bad, to have this lonesome island with no reception. :)
Looking forward to the next Swinog. Miguel
On 30.07.14 02:43, Fredy Kuenzler wrote:
Is anyone familiar with 3G repeater gear? I'm asking for a neighbor whose family owns a cottage in
a Swiss mountain valley with poor 3G reception.
Any recommendation for gear which is easily installable, more or less
plug-n-play, not too expensive (less than CHF 1000) and last but not least legal to operate would be appreciated.
-- Fredy Kuenzler Init7 (Switzerland) Ltd. St.-Georgen-Strasse 70 CH-8400 Winterthur Switzerland
swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
- -- - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Mobile: +41-79-22 34 510 Miguel ELIAS, Burgfelderstrasse 77, 4055 Basel, Switzerland - ------------------------------------------------------------------ === Please don't print this e-mail unless you really need to, this is your contribution to save the environment. ===
Am 31/07/2014 02:28, schrieb Miguel Elias:
First, any usage of active signal repeater is forbidden in Switzerland. (Statement of Bakom). Any base station system or signal repeater has to be owned / managed by an official frequency licensee. Signal repeater used in the field, do have some sophisticated measurement and control abilities.
very strange are there bakom aproved repeater on the market
http://www.antx.ch/repeater.php they claim to be the only aproved one well i know the amplitec, they dont have a sufficient feedback control, i would question this advertisement and: a friend got from arp i believe, a repeater with an bakom bakom certification.
but as a office repeater are not really usable except overcome metalized office windows there is no sense to use them in outdoor cases
in an big swiss Bank are private repeater since more than 10 years in use so i wonder about your statement.
On 31 Jul 2014, at 10:26, Roger Schmid roger@mgz.ch wrote:
Am 31/07/2014 02:28, schrieb Miguel Elias:
First, any usage of active signal repeater is forbidden in Switzerland. (Statement of Bakom). Any base station system or signal repeater has to be owned / managed by an official frequency licensee. Signal repeater used in the field, do have some sophisticated measurement and control abilities.
very strange are there bakom aproved repeater on the market
http://www.antx.ch/repeater.php they claim to be the only aproved one well i know the amplitec, they dont have a sufficient feedback control, i would question this advertisement and: a friend got from arp i believe, a repeater with an bakom bakom certification.
note: having a CERTIFICATION means the device operates within the bounds. This does not automatically mean it is LICENSED to use. For example if I buy a Radio for taxi operation, the vendor CERTIFIES it follows all the rules and doesnt make spurious emissions but that doesnt mean I can operate it as I want. I still need a license to operate it. The tricky thing here is that the repeater will start to transmitt on frequencies allocated to base statiions which are licensed to the mobile operators. Hence Sunrise, Siwscom and Orange could use this device but you as an individual not. Its a bit of a grey zone in most countries as the legal question is who is "transmitting". Is it the original base station or is it the repeater.
Am 31/07/2014 04:36, schrieb Andreas Fink:
On 31 Jul 2014, at 10:26, Roger Schmid roger@mgz.ch wrote:
Am 31/07/2014 02:28, schrieb Miguel Elias:
First, any usage of active signal repeater is forbidden in Switzerland. (Statement of Bakom). Any base station system or signal repeater has to be owned / managed by an official frequency licensee. Signal repeater used in the field, do have some sophisticated measurement and control abilities.
very strange are there bakom aproved repeater on the market
http://www.antx.ch/repeater.php they claim to be the only aproved one well i know the amplitec, they dont have a sufficient feedback control, i would question this advertisement and: a friend got from arp i believe, a repeater with an bakom bakom certification.
note: having a CERTIFICATION means the device operates within the bounds. This does not automatically mean it is LICENSED to use. For example if I buy a Radio for taxi operation, the vendor CERTIFIES it follows all the rules and doesnt make spurious emissions but that doesnt mean I can operate it as I want. I still need a license to operate it. The tricky thing here is that the repeater will start to transmitt on frequencies allocated to base statiions which are licensed to the mobile operators. Hence Sunrise, Siwscom and Orange could use this device but you as an individual not. Its a bit of a grey zone in most countries as the legal question is who is "transmitting". Is it the original base station or is it the repeater.
maybe to clarify, an repeater is not an transmitter its technically an amplifier and if there is a Bakom document which allow the usage i believe it is not a fake. well over here i installed a lot of repeater, in some cases i got feedback from the operator how good my installation work not interfeering anything with clean signal, most depending how its installed. but i know in switzerland only aprooved repeater should be used of corse. just google for GSM REPEATER SCHWEIZ BAKOM and you will find various offers and even docs from bakom. to the original requestor of this thread: i would say use an GMS router with an wlan ap and carry the inet this way from an position where the 3G signal is clean and without reflection. My first post seems not arrived on the list i will send that in the next email.
Am Thu, 31 Jul 2014 08:28:17 +0200 schrieb Miguel Elias miguel@kabelsalat.ch:
But some times, it isn't at all bad, to have this lonesome island with no reception. :)
Yep. They could rent it out as an "offline-holiday" apartment ;-)
Hey Fredy,
On 30. 07. 14 02:43, Fredy Kuenzler wrote:
Is anyone familiar with 3G repeater gear? I'm asking for a neighbor whose family owns a cottage in a Swiss mountain valley with poor 3G reception. Any recommendation for gear which is easily installable, more or less plug-n-play, not too expensive (less than CHF 1000) and last but not least legal to operate would be appreciated.
We use one baught from those guys: http://www.myamplifiers.com/ Works great and not too expensive
Am 31/07/2014 05:04, schrieb Rene Luria:
i believe in his case he need an complete outdoor solution, anytone have an tendency to feedback quickly and they dont have an detektor for such cases at all. you maybe not recognize that but maybe that thing creating signals nearby which interfere other channels or operator. on the point short before total oszilation will be a higher sideband noise which degrade the signal quality a bit and possible even creating some spurious emission. i changed some on existing installation to resolve such effects.
We use one baught from those guys: http://www.myamplifiers.com/ Works great and not too expensive
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Andreas Fink -
Fredy Kuenzler -
Miguel Elias -
Rainer Duffner -
Rene Luria -
Roger Schmid -
Silvan M. Gebhardt