Dear List
Today we received several delisting request for URI's and IP Addresses somehow associated with Newsletters sent by 'Rocketmails.ch'.
The listings were caused during the last 14 days or so by multiple customers reporting those emails as spam and claiming not having subscribed, nor being a customer of the advertising company.
And I guess I can figure out why...
Quote: "Sie erhalten dieses Mailing, weil Sie sich bei unseren Aktionsseiten oder der unserer Werbepartner mit der Email-Adresse XXXX eingetragen haben."
There is no mention of WHAT partner or WHAT website they allegedly subscribed. So that could also explain that they don't know the company whose products are advertised via Rocketmails. So for the recipient this is just spam.
Anyone else seeing these and knowing more about how the transfer of such personal data happens between those partner and what kind of partners those are?
So far no spamtrap hits, so this does not look like harvested addresses.
They obviously do Coreg. If you intend to deal with them, ask for proof of COI signup. That will end the conversation rather quickly.
Anyone else seeing these and knowing more about how the transfer of such personal data happens between those partner and what kind of partners those are?
This is usually easy to find out with a data information request. * Info EDÖB: https://www.edoeb.admin.ch/edoeb/de/home/datenschutz/ueberblick/das-auskunft... * Formular: https://mritzmann.github.io/letter/ I send such requests regularly, mainly as soon as I receive email newsletters of Swiss companys or offline post. Below are a few stories about how my address and e-mail data regularly change hands. Making sure that doesn't happen is very difficult.
First Story, 2016: * I received a newsletter for health insurance companies. The data was sold by "Zattoo Europa AG". After all: The newsletter could be cancelled as usual, after that it was quiet. Second Story, 2017: * I have received advertising from "Swisscard" (belongs to Credit Swiss and American Express). According to the information request, the data was purchased from the company Schober AG. * Then I sent a request for data information to Schober. However, Schober only gave an incomplete answer to the request. The data is supposed to be provided by third parties (names were not mentioned) "in agreement with their terms and conditions" and was then supplemented with public information. Third Story, 2019: * The Swiss Federation of Bakers and Confectioners has sold my address to Swissmilk (Farmers' Association). Swissmilk then sent me their free advertising magazine by post. * I've moved. Swissmilk has received my new address via Localsearch (Swisscom subsidiary). They run a service (product name: "Multisource Database") to update wrong and old addresses. According to the request for information, localsearch has received my new address from Sunrise and Swisscom.
On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 04:24:26PM +0200, Benoît Panizzon wrote:
Today we received several delisting request for URI's and IP Addresses somehow associated with Newsletters sent by 'Rocketmails.ch'.
A few weeks ago, I asked SECO about Rocket Mountain AG & Rocket Leads AG / Christian Huldi General-Wille-Str. 201 CH-8706 Meilen because they sent spam to multiple of my technical addresses, and SECO answered basically this:
1) sending to technical addresses is illegal, because they did not opt-in, and opt-in or having bought something is one of the three cumultative conditions to allow sending advertising e-mail
2) they told the company directly to stop.
3) they told me I can sue the company if I want
In German, here is the basic info they send when you complain to SECO:
Wir beziehen uns auf Ihre heutige Beschwerde vom betreffend die Versendung von Spamnachrichten durch die [ FIRMA ]
Die von Ihnen erwähnten E-Mails könnten möglicherweise unlautere Massenwerbung im Sinne von Art. 3 Abs. 1 lit. o UWG (Bundesgesetz gegen den unlauteren Wettbewerb https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classified-compilation/19860391/ ; SR 241) darstellen. Gemäss dieser Bestimmung ist der Versand von Massenwerbung nur zulässig, wenn die folgenden drei Bedingungen kumulativ erfüllt sind:
a. Der Empfänger hat in den Empfang einer Sendung ausdrücklich eingewilligt oder die Zustimmung des Empfängers ergibt sich aus einem beim Absender getätigten Kauf. b. Die Sendung enthält einen korrekten Absender. c. Die Sendung enthält einen klaren und deutlichen Hinweis, der die Ablehnung des weiteren Empfangs der Massenwerbung problemlos und kostenlos ermöglicht.
Sie haben die Möglichkeit, wegen Verletzungen von Art. 3 Abs. 1 lit. o UWG bei der Polizei oder der Staatsanwaltschaft einen Strafantrag gegen den Absender einzureichen und hätten überdies die Möglichkeit, auf dem Zivilprozessweg die Unterlassung der weiteren Zustellung von Massenwerbung zu verlangen.
NB: I have no idea if Rocket Mountain AG, Rocket Leads AG and Christian Huldi has any link with rocketmails.ch, however both were hosted at hosttech GmbH which basically told me they wouldn't do anything, and told me to contact the customer: I did that, and got absolutely no reply in the last three weeks.
I might send the formular that was mentionned on the list to see where they got that technical address from, thank you for the hint.
I have decided not to sue for the moment, this is very time consuming.
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 09:28:25 Marc SCHAEFER schaefer@alphanet.ch wrote:
NB: I have no idea if Rocket Mountain AG, Rocket Leads AG and Christian Huldi has any link with rocketmails.ch, however both were hosted at hosttech GmbH which basically told me they wouldn't do anything, and told me to contact the customer: I did that, and got absolutely no reply in the last three weeks.
I sent an "Auskunftsbegehren" regarding Spam to the Whois address of rocketsmails.ch in 2018, and I got a first answer by mail (from rocketleads.ch) and later by written letter (after I send them a second registered mail) from the Company Rocket Mails AG. Therefore, I can confirm that rocketleads.ch and Rocket Mails AG are the same company or had the same owners at that time. Back then, they told me that the got the mail address from a third party, to which I had consent into receiving advertisements. I could not confirm or deny that claim, and therefor I didn't take further steps, other than sending a letter to the third party, which did not answer. The relevant part of the letter from Rocket Mails AG was as follows:
Die Firma Rocket Mails AG fungiert als sogenannter Listbroker, das heisst; wir nutzen Daten von Dritten (Listeignern), welche die Daten erhoben haben und über das Werbeeinverständnis verfügen. Die vorangehend genannten Daten (Personendaten und E-Mail Adresse) stammen aus folgender Quelle:
[REDACTED]
Für weitere Informationen (Art der Einwilligung, IP-Adresse und Timestamp) bitten wir Sie, sich direkt beim Listeigner (Dateneigentümmer und Inhaber des Werbeeinverständnisses) zu melden. Nachfolgend dürfen wir Ihnen die Kontaktdaten zukommen lassen:
[REDACTED]
Greetings
Peter
On Sat, Aug 22, 2020 at 12:30:21PM +0200, Peter Rohrer wrote:
I sent an "Auskunftsbegehren" regarding Spam to the Whois address of rocketsmails.ch in 2018, and I got a first answer by mail (from rocketleads.ch) and later by written letter (after I send them a second registered mail) from the Company Rocket Mails AG.
After about one month, they answered. They seem to have a third company, Rocket Mountain AG, and thus rejected my request because it was not formally addressed to that company which seems to be now handling addressing for the other two (?).
I just resent it, this time as recommandé (eingeschrieben).
We will see what they will invent next not to comply with my rights.
Hi
Also an Update from my Side.
Tassero (the ESP) also told Rocket Moutain AG to contact me to solve the issue.
I had a first phone call with the responsible @ Rocket Mauntain AG. She also told me that rocketmails.ch has nothing to do with them and that therefore they would never answer the email I sent them. I pointed out that the reply-to header points to rocketmails.ch !
She told me, that they have a partnership with Swiss Post (indeed, that is mentioned on their website) and the recipients used for those emails originates from Swiss Post customers who agreed that Swiss Post uses their data for marketing.
I asked, why they don't mention this fact in the advertisement emails so the Swiss Post customer know where to have their data blocked. She couldn't tell.
I sent them (Rocket Mountain AG and Swiss Post) a request for a proof of opt-in for our affected customers. I have not yet received and reply. I'll call them today :-) )
Mit freundlichen Grüssen
-Benoît Panizzon-
Hi Gang
Update about today's call with Rocket Mountains AG.
Q: Involvement of rocketmails.ch:
They used to work together in the past but have split since. They don't know why their emails contained the 'wrong' sender and reply-to header and are investigating the issue. (I'll also ask Tassero).
Q: Partner of Swiss Post:
They mentioned that they are a partner of Swiss Post. But they did not tell me that they got the data from Swiss Post. That was a misunderstanding on my side.
They got the data from the recipients from Partner which, according to their understanding of the Swiss legal situation, they only have do disclose to the affected recipients and to no one else.
Q: Why don't they transparently state in the emails, where they got the recipient's data from, so the recipient can retrace why he got this advertisement email?
They don't see any legal obligation to do so. Just putting a footer in the email stating that Rocket Mountain AG sent the email and how to contact them fulfills all legal requirements.
If a customer wants the details, he can sent in a copy of and ID and he will get all the details!
Q: Don't they think, transparently disclosing the source of the data to the recipient would avoid their emails to be flagged as spam because it is to cumbersome for the customer to do the whole procedure to request this data?
No! They follow all legal requirements, they are not obliged to do more. It's not their fault. It's the fault of the recipients if they don't contact them and asks where they got their data and just wrongfully report such emails as spam.
But they will discuss the issue internally and have agreed to send me the details providing a proof of consent to receive those emails for the affected customers, with personal details blacked out.
Mit freundlichen Grüssen
-Benoît Panizzon-
On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:35:41AM +0200, Benoit Panizzon wrote:
Update about today's call with Rocket Mountains AG.
They just replied, in time.
They basically are not answering specific questions about specific e-mail address, inclusive technical addresses that are not linked to a specific person, nor the domain names that I included in the request.
They basically say that another company was responsible for the data acquisition and ask me to contact them. They however confirmed having suppressed my personal information. They gave a completely nonsensical reply to the reason why they had that data in the first place.
I will send another query to that other company, Sandro Achilles Photography Corporation, Voltastrasse 66, 8044 Zurich and see what happens next.
I will send another query to that other company, Sandro Achilles Photography Corporation, Voltastrasse 66, 8044 Zurich and see what happens next.
Bullseye!
I will contact her (Ms. G. from Rocket Mountain AG) and provide her an absolute proof, that S.A. used to work in the management @ Schober and during that time, copied data from his Schober customer who had their data processed by Schober, to later sell this data to AZ-Direct or TA-Media etc and pretend it's his own data he acquired via Mailchimp List Subscriptions (disproved by Lizza from Mailchimp Legal Team).
Also worth looking: SWINOG Anti-Spam list with a thread about the 'new Swiss Spam King'.
Please contact SECO (Lena Geiser). They know 'this case' since 2017. Please contact ECO.de (Mr. Brandolino). They know about him very recently.
Also worth notifying: Denise Anderegg DPO @ Schober and urge her once more to take legal steps against their former management member.
Of course it would be very very interesting, if your data could also be tracked back to a customer of Schober who had it's data processed @ Schober while S.A. was part of their management.
Mit freundlichen Grüssen
-Benoît Panizzon-
Hello,
Thank you for this valuable information.
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 12:21:38PM +0200, Benoit Panizzon wrote:
Please contact SECO (Lena Geiser). They know 'this case' since 2017. Please contact ECO.de (Mr. Brandolino). They know about him very recently.
I did that. Schober changed its name to Künzlerbachmann.
Of course it would be very very interesting, if your data could also be tracked back to a customer of Schober who had it's data processed @ Schober while S.A. was part of their management.
Let's wait for Sandro Achille's reply, in a month or so.
On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 13:07:20 Marc SCHAEFER schaefer@alphanet.ch wrote:
On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 12:21:38PM +0200, Benoit Panizzon wrote:
Please contact SECO (Lena Geiser). They know 'this case' since 2017.
Are they also willing to do anything, or is it more effective to hand over the case to the federal prosecutor? Last time I complaint to SECO about spam from Salt (former Orange), they played it down, saying that it was "just one mail".
Of course it would be very very interesting, if your data could also be tracked back to a customer of Schober who had it's data processed @ Schober while S.A. was part of their management.
Let's wait for Sandro Achille's reply, in a month or so.
I sent him registered letters to both his "Sandro Achilles Photography Corporation" (in 2019) and to "ACHILLES – Management & Marketing Consulting" (he received it about 2 Months ago) and did not get any response so far. I also called his phone number, he claimed someone else is handling those request for him.
Kind Regards
Peter Rohrer
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 08:54:32PM +0200, Peter Rohrer wrote:
I sent him registered letters to both his "Sandro Achilles Photography Corporation" (in 2019) and to "ACHILLES ??? Management & Marketing Consulting" (he received it about 2 Months ago) and did not get any response so far. I also called his phone number, he claimed someone else is handling those request for him.
If you do not get any reply after one month, I think that then it should be escalated to the proper authorities, as this looks a violation of Swiss law.
So far everyone has replied in the legal delay. I sent normal mail (and then registered mail when RocketMails played the `it's not us, it's RocketMountain').
If someone knows more about the legal procedure to follow when there is no reply, I would happily know about it.
just my 5cts...
would it break something if those who are spamed from them simply cut them off by nullrouting 185.176.152.0/22 ?
a static route to localhost on the receiving MX would do the trick.
That ISP is obviously hosting SPAMers and I wouldn't expect to have useful communication to/from that prefix...
8-)
----- Am 15. Okt 2020 um 21:21 schrieb Marc SCHAEFER schaefer@alphanet.ch:
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 08:54:32PM +0200, Peter Rohrer wrote:
I sent him registered letters to both his "Sandro Achilles Photography Corporation" (in 2019) and to "ACHILLES ??? Management & Marketing Consulting" (he received it about 2 Months ago) and did not get any response so far. I also called his phone number, he claimed someone else is handling those request for him.
If you do not get any reply after one month, I think that then it should be escalated to the proper authorities, as this looks a violation of Swiss law.
So far everyone has replied in the legal delay. I sent normal mail (and then registered mail when RocketMails played the `it's not us, it's RocketMountain').
If someone knows more about the legal procedure to follow when there is no reply, I would happily know about it.
swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 21:21:25 Marc SCHAEFER schaefer@alphanet.ch wrote:
If you do not get any reply after one month, I think that then it should be escalated to the proper authorities, as this looks a violation of Swiss law.
I did not get an answer, not even after a second registered letter with return receipt (but at least I got a signed return receipt, this is even better evidence that he received the letter).
So far everyone has replied in the legal delay. I sent normal mail (and then registered mail when RocketMails played the `it's not us, it's RocketMountain').
If someone knows more about the legal procedure to follow when there is no reply, I would happily know about it.
This blog post describes how a criminal complaint lead to a conviction by the prosecutor: https://www.digitale-gesellschaft.ch/2019/06/04/verurteilung-wegen-versand-v...
I used this as a template to write my own criminal complaint this weekend. Let's see how it turns out.
Kind Regards
Peter
Anyone seeing issues connecting to IPs belonging to sunrise? Started about 15min ago. I'm not the bgp expert but all AS numbers of Sunrise I found so far do not publish any bpg routes atm (ex https://bgp.he.net/AS5426)
Hey Tobi,
we've got a peering with sunrise and do not see any problem on our link nor on peering IP reachability from inside or outside our network.
Cheers,
Nico
Tobi tobster@brain-force.ch writes:
Anyone seeing issues connecting to IPs belonging to sunrise? Started about 15min ago. I'm not the bgp expert but all AS numbers of Sunrise I found so far do not publish any bpg routes atm (ex https://bgp.he.net/AS5426)
swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog
-- Modern, affordable, Swiss Virtual Machines. Visit www.datacenterlight.ch
Hi
The sunrise ASN is AS6730 AS5426 is used for mobile and not externally exposed. Thx Marc
-----Original Message----- From: swinog-bounces@lists.swinog.ch swinog-bounces@lists.swinog.ch On Behalf Of Tobi Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2020 4:25 PM To: swinog@lists.swinog.ch Subject: [swinog] Problems accessing Sunrise networks?
Anyone seeing issues connecting to IPs belonging to sunrise? Started about 15min ago. I'm not the bgp expert but all AS numbers of Sunrise I found so far do not publish any bpg routes atm (ex https://bgp.he.net/AS5426)
_______________________________________________ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch https://smex-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=http%3a%2f%2f...
Good Morning
just as update: according to sunrise there have been an issue affecting at least the customers DC in Oerlikon. We were completely disconnected from Sunrise DC and our servers there. Sunrise support explained that an update in the BGP routing tables lead to an overload of their FIB. Which ultimately caused connection outage to their server housing in Oerlikon.
Cheers
tobi
p.s. thanks for pointing out that I looked up the wrong AS number ;-) On 11/25/20 4:39 PM, Ammann, Marc wrote:
Hi
The sunrise ASN is AS6730 AS5426 is used for mobile and not externally exposed. Thx Marc
-----Original Message----- From: swinog-bounces@lists.swinog.ch swinog-bounces@lists.swinog.ch On Behalf Of Tobi Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2020 4:25 PM To: swinog@lists.swinog.ch Subject: [swinog] Problems accessing Sunrise networks?
Anyone seeing issues connecting to IPs belonging to sunrise? Started about 15min ago. I'm not the bgp expert but all AS numbers of Sunrise I found so far do not publish any bpg routes atm (ex https://bgp.he.net/AS5426)
swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch https://smex-ctp.trendmicro.com:443/wis/clicktime/v1/query?url=http%3a%2f%2f...
On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 18:25:23 Peter Rohrer peter.rohrer@gmx.ch wrote:
On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 21:21:25 Marc SCHAEFER schaefer@alphanet.ch wrote:
So far everyone has replied in the legal delay. I sent normal mail (and then registered mail when RocketMails played the `it's not us, it's RocketMountain').
If someone knows more about the legal procedure to follow when there is no reply, I would happily know about it.
This blog post describes how a criminal complaint lead to a conviction by the prosecutor: https://www.digitale-gesellschaft.ch/2019/06/04/verurteilung-wegen-versand-v...
I used this as a template to write my own criminal complaint this weekend. Let's see how it turns out.
I got an answer from the federal prosecutor, unfortunately I was to late and didn't press charges within 3 months after knowing about the offender (Art. 31 StGB). So, if you ever get into a similar situation, don't waste to much time sending letters to the spammer and waiting for answers. I am not happy about that outcome, but there is not much I can do about it. If I understand the letter from the federal prosecutor correctly, the violation of the data protection law was handed off to the Stadtrichteramt Zürich. So, this is still open.
Greetings
Peter
On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 06:03:28PM +0100, Peter Rohrer wrote:
I got an answer from the federal prosecutor, unfortunately I was to late and didn't press charges within 3 months after knowing about the
That's really short.
It is surprising that Wrong accusations prescribe after 5 years, but accusations must be made within 3 monthes.
offender (Art. 31 StGB). So, if you ever get into a similar situation, don't waste to much time sending letters to the spammer and waiting for answers.
It's already too late, actually, as the culprit happened in august.
On Mon, Sep 21, 2020 at 11:02:16AM +0200, Benoit Panizzon wrote:
emails originates from Swiss Post customers who agreed that Swiss Post uses their data for marketing.
Well, in my case, they wrote to technical addresses that never were communicated to the Swiss Post. SECO was informed, as this violates SR 241, Art. 3. Abs. 1, 1 lit. Kondition a.
SECO told me I could sue them just for that. Depending on how complete they reply to my request, I might.
Hi Marc
Did you get a reply to your request?
I had further contact with them, but they don't seem to grasp the issue. They tell me that their contract with the list owners only allow them to disclose the source of their data to the actual recipients.
Yes, I understand and I keep telling them to transparently name the source of the data in the emails they send to the recipients as this would comply with their contract.
But they don't want to do that and don't (want to) understand that this leads to spam complaints because the recipient never had any contact with Rocket Mountain AG before.
Mit freundlichen Grüssen
-Benoît Panizzon-
On Tue, Oct 06, 2020 at 09:12:32AM +0200, Benoit Panizzon wrote:
Did you get a reply to your request?
Not yet, but they still have about two weeks.
But they don't want to do that and don't (want to) understand that this leads to spam complaints because the recipient never had any contact with Rocket Mountain AG before.
Contact the SECO please, the more people complain, the higher is that SECO does something. Especially when it's a company complaining.
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Ammann, Marc -
Benoit Panizzon -
Benoît Panizzon
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Lukas Knauer -
Marc SCHAEFER -
Markus Ritzmann -
Nico Schottelius -
Peter Rohrer -
Ralph Krämer -
Tobi