installing a P2P phose client just for chatting ? IRC is basic, works very well even on very slow satelite link without causing congestion. And at least it doesnt depend on some thirdparty Services,the servers are under our control.

Roger

Am 6 Oct 2008 um 16:15 hat Roman Hochuli geschrieben:

...

why doesn't someone create a public Skype chat for SwiNOG?

Will that work with my <enter your chosen OS here>?

...

I think more people on this list have skype than IRC client software (me, for example :-)

It's simple, it's vintage, it's reliable and clients are available for pretty much every known device. Or in other words: it's plain geeky. Reason enough? ;)

-- Best regards, Roman Hochuli Operations Manager

nexellent ag Saegereistrasse 29 CH-8152 Glattbrugg

Phone: +41 44 562 30 40 Fax: +41 44 562 30 41 URL: www.nexellent.ch X-NCC-RegID: ch.nexellent

Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality. -- Jules de Gaultier _______________________________________________ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog

* Silvan Gebhardt wrote:

I vote for a jabber chatroom ;)

let's meet in a pub ;)

roger@mgz.ch schrieb:

...

installing a P2P phose client just for chatting ? IRC is basic, works very well even on very slow satelite link without causing congestion. And at least it doesnt depend on some thirdparty Services,the servers are under our control.

Roger

Am 6 Oct 2008 um 16:15 hat Roman Hochuli geschrieben:

...

...

why doesn't someone create a public Skype chat for SwiNOG?

Will that work with my <enter your chosen OS here>?

...

I think more people on this list have skype than IRC client software (me, for example :-)

It's simple, it's vintage, it's reliable and clients are available for pretty much every known device. Or in other words: it's plain geeky. Reason enough? ;)

-- Best regards, Roman Hochuli Operations Manager

nexellent ag Saegereistrasse 29 CH-8152 Glattbrugg

Phone: +41 44 562 30 40 Fax: +41 44 562 30 41 URL: www.nexellent.ch X-NCC-RegID: ch.nexellent

Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality. -- Jules de Gaultier _______________________________________________ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog

---

swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog

---

swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog

Salut, Roman,

On Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:15:47 +0200, Roman Hochuli wrote:

It's simple, it's vintage, it's reliable and clients are available for pretty much every known device. Or in other words: it's plain geeky. Reason enough? ;)

Nah. IRC is ubiquitous, that's it. If you want something geeky, there's ICB or SILC.

Tonnerre

I'd suppose joining the channel #swinog ;)

And yeah, Skype is great. Overblown Software with free NSA Trojan Horse plugin </kidding>.

Boris.

Hmm VoIP is very network sensitive and it would be useless in case of network troubles. I thinking about joining this "Swinog" IRC network, currently I'm on EFNET via irc.efnet.ch What are the right channels to join ? Regarding the stats of http://irc.subcult.ch looks to be more German channels than English ones.

Peter Keel wrote:

• on the Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 07:02:18AM -0700, Stanislav Sinyagin wrote:

...

why doesn't someone create a public Skype chat for SwiNOG? I think more people on this list have skype than IRC client software (me, for example :-)

I don't. And I WON'T.

agree. Skype is bad, big security hole, closed source... just ugly like windows... don't use it :-)

of course skype is great for simple users because it finds a way out of nearly every secure network!

all good systems (linux, os x, etc.. ) offer an IRC client out of the box... :-) and there are a lot of free and opensource clients for windows out there as well...

bests Marco

I've done too much cmputer security, and now I've got a déformation professionelle. I won't use closed software for anything crucial like "communication"; something where I can't even run the server myself (or decide whose server I want to use).

On the other hand, I've got an IRC-Server running too ;) And I'm available with Jabber, of course.

Cheers Seegras

Peter Keel wrote:

• on the Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 07:02:18AM -0700, Stanislav Sinyagin wrote:

...

why doesn't someone create a public Skype chat for SwiNOG? I think more people on this list have skype than IRC client software (me, for example :-)

I don't. And I WON'T.

I've done too much cmputer security, and now I've got a déformation professionelle. I won't use closed software for anything crucial like "communication";

You don't use Cisco's or Junipers? How do you use the Internet actually? Or for that matter, did you actually really get that BIOS source of your computer and that of the video card etc etc?

And of course, with Open Source: did you check every single line of the source, and that of the compiler, and all the tools that that was made with etc etc etc? Ah, indeed you didn't, thus please don't claim that "Open Source" is "more secure" because you have the source, because it is impossible to check.

something where I can't even run the server myself (or decide whose server I want to use).

Some people like A, some people like B.

Some people like irc.swinog.ch, some people like Undernet/IRCnet/EFnet/.... whatever floats your boat.

Greets, Jeroen

Salut, Per,

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 07:38:56 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

The idea of open source is not so much that you get to check it yourself, but much more that it is open for hundreds of thousands of other people to check. If for instance the quality/security of a piece of code is proportional to the number of times it's been reviewed, then yes, open source is quite possibly more secure.

You should read the more recent publications on the subject. The idea that this actually happens is a pure illusion.

I think that the advantage of Open Source does indeed lie in the fact that you have the ability to fix things yourself, and that, whatever you start, you have a large pool of preexistent code you can build on. And the ability to learn from it etc.

Tonnerre

Salut, Attila,

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 13:31:10 +0200, Attila Kinali wrote:

Can you name some of these recent publications? I'd be much interested to read them.

<de>Sag ich nicht, selber suchen.</de>

Tonnerre

I guess it's not about "Fixing" but also expanding

small example: I use a extension to my gnome panel called "SSH Menu"

I can add hosts which it opens me a ssh session in a terminal just by clicking on the menu entry.

now I wanted to expand that to include RDP Sessions - okay - took the code, and have it rewritten. so that IS actually an advantage! and I did not have to consult the developers at all, I just checked out the code

Per Jessen schrieb:

Tonnerre Lombard wrote:

...

I think that the advantage of Open Source does indeed lie in the fact that you have the ability to fix things yourself,

Hi Tonnerre

fixing something yourself is also pretty much an illusion, except for those few people who are sufficiently involved. When have you last _had_ to fix anything yourself in a stable release of any open source project?

/Per Jessen, Herrliberg ZH

---

swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog

Open does not implicitly mean crap and closed also don’t mean automatically good... Actually I'm sick and tired of discussions regarding opensource as most of the time they just flame up (as here).

My 2 cts: Use whatever you want, have your idea about it, but don't try to convince others about what is right or wrong. I have my idea about it and if someone what to know more he can contact me offlist.

Have a nice day :-)

Daniele

-----Original Message----- From: swinog-bounces@lists.swinog.ch [mailto:swinog-bounces@lists.swinog.ch] On Behalf Of Jeroen Massar Sent: Dienstag, 7. Oktober 2008 14:33 To: swinog@swinog.ch Subject: Re: [swinog] open source illusions

Silvan Gebhardt wrote:

I guess it's not about "Fixing" but also expanding

small example: I use a extension to my gnome panel called "SSH Menu"

I can add hosts which it opens me a ssh session in a terminal just by clicking on the menu entry.

now I wanted to expand that to include RDP Sessions - okay - took the code, and have it rewritten. so that IS actually an advantage! and I did not have to consult the developers at all, I just checked out the code

And there is your illusion, as you will want to stay up-to-date, and as such, you will have to get the new version (because it is cooler, or actually because it contains so many security fixes because the code quality is really really bad, which is the case in a lot of projects), and then you find out that getting your cool little fix into their code is most likely not going to happen, unless you can persuade them really well or take a long time campaigning for it, and then they change the API or complete structure of the code and you have to redo your change, for small changes that might be fine, for larger ones, you are basically peeped.

Better then to pay the closed source folks and let them do it, as they will also maintain the changes for yo.

Greets, Jeroen

No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1665 - Release Date: 10/6/2008 5:37 PM

No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.6.19/1665 - Release Date: 10/6/2008 5:37 PM

This e-mail, any associated files and the information contained in them are confidential and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please notify the originator and delete the email immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. E-mails to and from the company are monitored for operational reasons and in accordance with lawful business practices. Any opinions expressed are those of the individual and do not necessarily represent the views of the company. The company does not conclude contracts by email and all negotiations are subject to contract. We make every effort to maintain our network free from computer viruses but accept no responsibility for any viruses which might be transferred by this e-mail.

Hello!

Am 07.10.08 14:33 schrieb "Jeroen Massar" unter jeroen@unfix.org:

Better then to pay the closed source folks and let them do it, as they will also maintain the changes for yo.

Each day I work with Open Source and Closed Source tools and applications. Usually I see commercial software coming with a better usability and OpenSource with better stability and performance.

The major advantage for OpenSource is the visibility of the code - no code monkey is able to hide 20 years old buggy crap when he needs to provide the sources. Believe me, this is a great motivation for a lot of coders out there ;-)

Even more, when you pay licenses host or by CPU, which means today _per_core_, why should a commercial software supplier optimize their binaries? Even simple tasks like using a commercial compiler instead of gcc, which gives 10-100% additional performance, is often not done as the compiler costs $1000 extra - compare this with the several hundred thousends the scoftware company usually earns per year...

Beat

Hoi Beat,

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 15:07:45 +0200 Beat Rubischon beat@0x1b.ch wrote:

The major advantage for OpenSource is the visibility of the code - no code monkey is able to hide 20 years old buggy crap when he needs to provide the sources. Believe me, this is a great motivation for a lot of coders out there ;-)

I've never seen 20y old code in any OSS project (ok, i've never bothered to look at such old projects), but i know more than one project that contains crap code that is 10y old and nobody dares to touch it, because nobody fully understands it. So that argument is pretty much void ;-)

Even more, when you pay licenses host or by CPU, which means today _per_core_, why should a commercial software supplier optimize their binaries? Even simple tasks like using a commercial compiler instead of gcc, which gives 10-100% additional performance, is often not done as the compiler costs $1000 extra - compare this with the several hundred thousends the scoftware company usually earns per year...

Anyone who has ever written more than a few lines of C code knows that gcc is crap... unfortunately, it's the best compiler out there. The comercial compilers usualy segfault at every second file of my favorite compiler testbench, commonly known as FFmpeg. Well, at least Intel did a good job of fixing most of their bugs, but it took them years. How long it will take sun to fix their compiler, which is even worse is anyones guess.

And i'm not yet talking about compiler that emit incorrect code.

Attila Kinali

* Marc Balmer wrote:

[...]

Quite some files of BSD operating systems contain copyrights like the following:

• Copyright (c) 1988 University of Utah.
• Copyright (c) 1982, 1990, 1993

•  The Regents of the University of California.  All rights reserved.
  
  

26 years...

actually indent(1), a program to indent and format C program source bears a copyright from 1976:

* Copyright (c) 1976 Board of Trustees of the University of Illinois.

32 years. And still useful. And this is the oldest copyright I could find in an operating system (OpenBSD) that still ships today.

(usr.bin/indent in OpenBSD, for those who care)

[...]

Salut, king of the huns,

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:40:13 +0200, Attila Kinali wrote:

Anyone who has ever written more than a few lines of C code knows that gcc is crap... unfortunately, it's the best compiler out there. The comercial compilers usualy segfault at every second file of my favorite compiler testbench, commonly known as FFmpeg. Well, at least Intel did a good job of fixing most of their bugs, but it took them years. How long it will take sun to fix their compiler, which is even worse is anyones guess.

WFM with SUNWcc on sol10u5.

Tonnerre

Salut, Per,

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:01:24 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

fixing something yourself is also pretty much an illusion, except for those few people who are sufficiently involved. When have you last _had_ to fix anything yourself in a stable release of any open source project?

Being a member of the security scene, I write patches for Open Source software almost every day. And what about you?

Tonnerre

Salut, Per,

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 15:41:47 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

I am 99% an open source _user_, and I have only written very few patches. Which proves my point, I think.

So let me summarize. The fact that we all can fix things and only a few people do it means that the argument of being able to fix things is a weak argument. The fact that we all can prove the source code and _noone_ does it makes it a strong point.

Thanks for enlightening me.

Tonnerre

* on the Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 02:01:24PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

fixing something yourself is also pretty much an illusion, except for those few people who are sufficiently involved. When have you last _had_ to fix anything yourself in a stable release of any open source project?

We've found bugs in just about everything we use. FreeBSD kernel, libc, apache-modules, pdns, nfs, and so on. And we fix them if we have the source. We're not involved in any of those projects.

Cheers Seegras

Salut, Marco,

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 08:47:41 +0200, Marco Fretz wrote:

I usually don't have a look at the code at all. But point is, it's code, tested and build by a community not a closed company with their own, secret business goals...! I don't want be a victim of global marketing data collection and stuff like that...

Maybe you noticed already, maybe not, but in reality, Open Source communities tend to care a lot about marketing. This is why they try to disguise security patches as "performance enhancement" - oh wait, that was Apple.

But indeed such things happen, in large amounts, even in the Open Source world.

Tonnerre

Hey, Ihsan,

On Tue, 07 Oct 2008 22:53:28 +0200, Ihsan Dogan wrote:

One of the big reasons why people are buying commercial software products is, that they can get support and SLA. Most of the open source projects cannot provide that.

Not by themselves, but you can get that support through other means, either from a distributor like Red Hat or Univention or from a solutions provider like us.

Tonnerre

maybe your not aware but skype is a p2p tool, servers just exists for the directory, or the gates .. so wiretapping is just possible on the gate while calling a PSTN partitiant. but as we allready heard most using skype, the possibility of badmans communication will stay P2P

to confuse the wiretapping system, say in every conversation a bunch of triggerwords like: C4, bomb, nuclear, gaz, dynamite, cäsium, blow up... or whatever getting in your mind.

Roger

Am 8 Oct 2008 um 7:15 hat Peter Keel geschrieben:

• on the Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 06:50:54PM +0200, Jeroen Massar wrote:

...

...

I've done too much cmputer security, and now I've got a déformation professionelle. I won't use closed software for anything crucial like "communication";

You don't use Cisco's or Junipers? How do you use the Internet actually?

It's a very different matter if a client is wired to use some specific server of some company to initiate communication, and uses a closed protocol too. For all I know this is like re-routing my communication trough skypes servers so they can wiretap it.

Cheers Seegras -- "Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin "It's also true that those who would give up privacy for security are likely to end up with neither." -- Bruce Schneier _______________________________________________ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog

Steven.Glogger@swisscom.com wrote:

IRC is cool - IRC is a geek tool ,-)) skype is something for "warmduscher" (well, i've got an account since 2 days...) ,-))

yes, IRC is old-school. it's just great, coding own bots, irc clients, etc... lot of possibilities.

Skype is like MSN Messenger, just another ugly overloaded communication tool. if I have to choose between skype and MSN, it's MSN, because there are a lot of opensource and freeware alternatives to the bad Live Messenger from Microschrott, ah Microsoft... :-)

-steven

-----Original Message----- From: swinog-bounces@lists.swinog.ch [mailto:swinog-bounces@lists.swinog.ch] On Behalf Of Stanislav Sinyagin Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 4:02 PM To: swinog@swinog.ch Subject: Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ?

why doesn't someone create a public Skype chat for SwiNOG? I think more people on this list have skype than IRC client software (me, for example :-)

----- Original Message ----

...

From: Boris Meyer boris@imp.ch To: swinog@swinog.ch Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 3:51:20 PM Subject: Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ?

PS: The actual list of all available servers is listed at: http://irc.subcult.ch

...

As a result of a DDoS against the SwissIX IP-Range the prefix of SwissIX is at the moment only reachable by its peers.

We are working towards bringing the irc-server back online. But in the mean time eiher use another server of the mesh or have a SwissIX-connected ISP ;).

---

swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog

---

swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog _______________________________________________ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog

roger@mgz.ch wrote:

i was requesting twice on _http://www.warmduscher- abc.ch/warmduscher_abc.asp_ http://www.warmduscher-abc.ch/warmduscher_abc.asp

to add the term "Skype-Benutzer"

but as the maintainer seems to be an skype fan it getting ignored

try it again :D

Roger

Am 7 Oct 2008 um 9:32 hat Marco Fretz geschrieben:

...

Steven.Glogger@swisscom.com wrote:

...

IRC is cool - IRC is a geek tool ,-)) skype is something for "warmduscher" (well, i've got an account since

2 days...) ,-))

...

yes, IRC is old-school. it's just great, coding own bots, irc clients, etc... lot of possibilities.

Skype is like MSN Messenger, just another ugly overloaded communication tool. if I have to choose between skype and MSN, it's MSN, because there are a lot of opensource and freeware alternatives to the bad Live Messenger from Microschrott, ah Microsoft... :-)

...

-steven

-----Original Message----- From: swinog-bounces@lists.swinog.ch

[mailto:swinog-bounces@lists.swinog.ch] On Behalf Of Stanislav Sinyagin

...

...

Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 4:02 PM To: swinog@swinog.ch Subject: Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ?

why doesn't someone create a public Skype chat for SwiNOG? I think more people on this list have skype than IRC client software

(me, for example :-)

...

...

----- Original Message ----

...

From: Boris Meyer boris@imp.ch To: swinog@swinog.ch Sent: Monday, October 6, 2008 3:51:20 PM Subject: Re: [swinog] IRC Server dead ?

PS: The actual list of all available servers is listed at: http://irc.subcult.ch

...

As a result of a DDoS against the SwissIX IP-Range the prefix of SwissIX is at the moment only reachable by its peers.

We are working towards bringing the irc-server back online. But in the mean time eiher use another server of the mesh or have a SwissIX-connected ISP ;).

---

swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog

---

swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog _______________________________________________ swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog

---

swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog

---

---

swinog mailing list swinog@lists.swinog.ch http://lists.swinog.ch/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swinog

Am 7.10.2008 9:32 Uhr, Marco Fretz schrieb:

Skype is like MSN Messenger, just another ugly overloaded communication tool. if I have to choose between skype and MSN, it's MSN, because there are a lot of opensource and freeware alternatives to the bad Live Messenger from Microschrott, ah Microsoft... :-)

Well, it might be ugly, but at least it works in almost every situation.

Ihsan